Theme Keyword Question

[DeanRichards]

Category keywords don't necessarily have to fit a logical hierarchy, but they still have to be semantically related. They have to be "about" the same thing in some way. The semantic relevance of keywords is determined by Google, not by us, but even still, our sites have to make sense for people. So we let Google do the first sorting and then we use our human sense to deal with what's left.

I know these are just examples from your imagination, but let me use them for real to illustrate my point.

If I use "rock drums" as my seed keywords in Market Samurai, "rock albums download" does not come up as a related term. This isn't really too surprising. It's just way too much of a stretch to think that a site about rock drums would also be about "rock albums download." The two terms are pretty specific and they don't really relate except on some very vague "music" level and that is too vague. I'm not saying that your category keywords necessarily have to come from your theme keywords as seeds, but they do need to show up in the same list somehow.

So first Google has to see them as related in some way and then you have to see them as related in some way. It doesn't have to be a hierarchical relationship, but the relationship of the words does have to make sense both to Google and to people.

[AaronDBell]

Thank you, Dean! This has seriously helped me to hone my market research...seriously.

I feel like I'm now a laser cutting through the weeds and landing on the rocks. You're an amazing person, and I appreciate your help.

Sincerely as Your Friend,

~ Aaron

[Mel66]

Dean said to Aaron " I'm not saying that your category keywords necessarily have to come from your theme keywords as seeds, but they do need to show up in the same list somehow."

I am unsure about that "list," since I keep pulling terms from the same keyword, then opening new Market Samurai tabs and running analyses. Let's use Aaron's terms.

Part 1: Let's say I put "rock drums" into MS, and that it yields two terms that meet the Challenge criteria, "Rock album download" and something else. Part 2: So, I take the first term, "Rock album download," open it as a new MS key, put in the Challenge filters and get "rock music maker free" and "rock crazyriff". Now I have four terms that meet the criteria, but all are not derived from the original term "rock drums." They are on separate MS "keys" and on separate, but related lists.

Can I do this?

Theme keyword: Rock Drums
Category keywords: 1) rock album download (derived from the "Rock Drums" list), 2) "rock music maker free" and "rock crazyriff" (not derived from the original term, "Rock Drums.").

Question #2
Let's go back to Part 1 in the example above, since Rock Drums only yielded two terms in this hypothetical example, should I have abandoned this as a theme keyword and moved on to "Rock album download" instead as the next potential theme keyword.

Dean, I have read your post about using MS several times. It is very helpful. Thanks.

[DeanRichards]

I know you're trying to understand underlying principles, but the problem with your example for question one is that the terms so obviously fail the "make sense to people" test that it is hard to talk about the making sense to Google part. Terms can come from seeds of seeds as long as they're obviously related.

Example - seed term "sports" yields "sporting shoes" and "sport coat" that meet the guidelines. Using "sporting shoes" as a seed yields "shoe repair kit" and "bowling shoes" that meet the guidelines. Then you try "sport coat" as a seed and you get "plastic rain coat" and "sporting clothing" that meet the guidelines.

So the real question here is if "sporting clothing" would be ok as a category keyword on sportingshoes.com?

If this was all I had to go on, I would say no. The seed keyword "sport coat" is too far away from "sporting shoes" (which delivered the other winners) to be comfortable. However, if I tried "sporting clothing" as a seed and got "sporting shoes" as a hit, then I would be Ok with using "sporting clothing" as a category keyword on sportingshoes.com. Even though "sporting clothing" seems like a more generic term and logically would be above "sporting shoes" in a market hierarchy, if the numbers are better for "sporting shoes" to be the theme, then that's the way you play it and you let "sporting clothing" be a category.

What about "shoe repair kit?" I'd use it. It makes sense to me that someone in the market for a new pair of sporting shoes might also have older shoes that need repair. It's not that far off the mark. However, if I came into a site looking for "bowling shoes" I wouldn't expect to find plastic rain coats.

Question 2 - answer: maybe - you have to explore downstream before you know. As I said, "Rock album download" is NOT a viable category keyword if you're using "Rock Drums" as your theme. So it depends on the "something else" in your example. If you can get some viable category keywords with it and if they all relate in human logic to "Rock Drums" then you're good to go.

[Mel66]

Hi Dean. You said: "Terms can come from seeds of seeds as long as they're obviously related."

I am still ruminating about this. It's not clear enough for me to move forward. Let me ask it a different way - this time with the two charts I made below (a little self consciously and at the expense of overkill, but I am trying to figure this out. Please forgive me).

First Chart - http://screencast.com/t/FQG0A9uc
Let's say (can we say?) that the category words circled in green pass the "make sense to humans" hurdle. But, would Google think they are related, even though they are cousins? They do not have the same keyword, but they were derived from the same seed. Can I put use them as category keywords under the same "seed" at the top?

Second Chart - http://screencast.com/t/0nJ1QrrYUy0
Again, assuming these make sense to humans, would Google think they're related enough to group together the ones circled in green? Is it too much of a stretch to add the one circled in orange.

I would imagine that combining one side of the pink level with the other side of the pink level would be far too distant.

Thanks in advance for your feedback.

[DeanRichards]

I'd say number 2 is a pretty easy "yes."

As for number one, probably OK. In practice, I always test all of my category keywords as seeds and they generally cross pollinate enough that it's easy to see they're related. Also, when I'm testing for relevance, I'm not running any filters. And generally, if it makes sense to people, it will make sense to Google.

Here's another trick to look for relevance... run the top ranking sites for your category keywords through the Google Adwords Keyword Tool and see if your proposed category keywords come back from those sites. Again, it doesn't matter what the numbers are, you're just looking for semantic relevance.